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Storvi
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| | Friday, January 27, 2006 - 8:59 pm: | 
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seriously though, what does it mean to search for truth? what is it you are searching? why should one even search for truth, and is there such a thing?
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Apurv
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| | Friday, January 27, 2006 - 9:57 pm: |
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I guess its just a natural curiosity(not every one has it) to know what is the purpose of life. We take birth, we grow, have career, get married, have kids, family, and we die. Is that the end? or is there something more to it. I mean why did we go throught all this if thats how its gonna end? If thats the only thing, then why some people have good life and some people suffer all their life. I guess Gautam Buddha found his answers in Enlightnement!
Its just like Matrix, you are part of some big program, u try to find your way out. you want to know who created all this things, in our case we call our creator God.
so why should one search for truth, its because u just want to, u have had enough with it, u gotta know man! what is the truth? answer to the question WHY is the Truth? why why why???
sorry Ashish for wasting ur space, just got carried away!
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Bee
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| | Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 7:48 am: |
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Hi Ashish, I did not see ur answer to my question earlier. Thanks for your reply. I found all the info about TaDoba in Chandrapur district. I also got answers to my emails from Dr. Abhay Bang. If time permits, I will visit their Ashram in Gadchiroli.
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the next topic about life-truth is so big and I think we do not have to find out what are the ways to reach that path of truthfullness. Our great ancestors has already given us enough spiritual teachings. Its just that we have to follow them.. what they have done.. practice their ways of life. I think Yoga, especially Raaj-Yoga will lead you to this path. But there are many stages of it.
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Aschig
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| | Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 8:22 am: |
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> Is there such a thing as truth?
There is no absolute truth.
Truths are relative and contextual.
> what does it mean to search for truth?
> what is it you are searching?
My current take on this is as follows:
Harmony, connectedness, central theme (of anything) is what one should be looking for. These often get confused with truth (because people believe that truth is absolute).
> why should one even search for truth,
Because that provides you with a "general and global" purpose. That is one thing you really believe is "good" for everybody.
Those who do not search for truth (or even those who have found it) are dead in a literal sense. It is the journey that is all important.
Truth (and its search) is what sets you free.
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Aschig
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| | Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 8:30 am: |
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Bee, though yoga is not a theme here, since you have brought that up, I include here excerpts from a recent email I sent to some of my friends when a similar topic had come up:
Yoga, as it is practised, has to do with keeping certain functionalities of the body in a sound state. If one is of a spiritual disposition, a healthy body will help you spend more time doing it. On the other hand, if you are an atheist (or a Christian), doing Yoga will allow you to
spend more quality time on your alternate spirituality: Christianity, or even doing science.
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Bee
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| | Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 2:51 pm: |
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Ashish, u r making ur own BB as a V & C, later do not complain 
Since u said truth is relative, according to my opinion truth means understanding ur purpose behind taking birth as a any living being! since other living being excect man do not have that talent to search for this truth, they just live their life what they have got. But human being can do much more than just living life happily, aquiring physical goals, prosperity, name and fame etc. So whats that he can do and how he can do are the prime questions to all those who even slightly think what are we for? are we just for eating two times and passing days after days till we die?
To me, one has to sacrifice a lot, has to devote a lot, has to change a lot and has to assimilate a lot in order to aquire this truth!!!!! One may think, this means u r going away from life. I will say NO u r first time thinking for life.
well.. this is a huge topic .. I will stop here. sorry if I wrote something crap
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Bee
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| | Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 2:55 pm: |
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Ashish, there is a four lines of Sankrit shlok as to what Yoga is. I alrady wrote it on Yoga's BB and also describe it. I think, u can read it. U can fwd that Shlok to ur friends. There is really no need to redefine whats Yoga is.
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Seeking spiritual truth can be knowing why we exist, Where we come from, Where we will go, knowing why the mortal coordinates of all living beings are different, if there is any common link between all living beings, Why some beings suffer all their life inspite of living moral life, and some enjoy life inspite of killing thousands of innocent people. It does not matter if one believes or not in karma, rebirth existance/(non) of God or some external power but one can't deny the facts of present life.
I had same thought in my mind as Ashish mentioned that truth as generic term is very relative and contextual. It all depends on one's approach and the truth itself.
One's quest to seek truth is also very much relative. It could be curiosity or It could be circumstances or it could be out of compassion for other living beings to better their lives.
Ashish, yes we could discuss it through email but it would then be limited to our views. Group participation brings in many otherwise missed angles. It would be nice to play that game again with slight change. Instead of talking on the subjects written on the cards one should be given choice to talk on any subject he or she wants to:-)
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Aschig
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| | Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 10:20 pm: |
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Bee, indeed, we should not convert this feedback forum to arbitrary V&C but keep it for feedback on the posts (which can include some relevant V&C of course).
Everyone's views are "mistakes" for others who do not agree with those views. One learns to pick up patterns while learning science. The mistake you are making (in the above sense of the word mistake) when you say "understanding one's purpose in life" and "only humans can do that" is to assume that there IS a purpose and to ignore the possibility that there may be other intelligent species elsewhere in the universe completely different form us (who can also contemplate about themselves - perhaps they are Silicon based, have two heads, three sexes and incapable of hatred).
My different views on Yoga are because it is assumed (again a mistake) that "the activity" and "its interpretation" are necessarily correlated (and correct). I pity the billions of people who have not even heard about Yoga. Or the billions that died without hearing about it. Poor folks, they were doomed without even knowing they were doomed. This certainly includes people like Leonardo Da Vinci, Newton, Bach, Aristotle, Plato etc. not to mention Jesus, St. Paul etc. Again, I absolutely agree that Yoga is great, but before I give it a throne of universality, I feel like stepping back a bit and seeing how big that universe is.
Vikas, may be you can start with your views on some BB and we can try to take it from there.
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Muktasunit
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| | Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 11:04 pm: |
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Ashish, I stumbled upon your BB by accident. Truly a happy accident on my part. Needless to say, when one reads so much on different topics that is so much thought-provoking, it is bound to give rise to a whirlwind of questions on many aspects.
I fumbled about where to start asking, (perhaps the above prelude is partly a result of that fumbling ); but need to start somwehere...
You have made a passing reference to Bhagat-Singh in your article on socialism. That was interesting. Where can I get to read about Bhagatsingh's socialist leanings ? interestingly , although I vaguley knew about his subscription to communist/socialist thoughts, I found no reference to it in "Rang De Basanti"..Perhaps I was expecting a bit of Kirtan where a (well-orchastrated) tamasha was happening.
Regards
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Aschig
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| | Friday, February 24, 2006 - 8:21 am: |
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muktasunit, questions/discussion are always welcome. I hope I have answered your query in my latest posting.
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Excellent riposte, that! Thanks for that Punjab resource on Bhagat Singh..
The near-complete absence of Bhagat-Singh's political leanings in RDB was particularly striking because there was the matter of "Research" lady who makes that documentary etc.
Here's another one : You have mentioned that Charvak's works were preserved by other religons. Were these Jains ?
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Aschig
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| | Friday, February 24, 2006 - 8:39 pm: |
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It seems that there were many charvaks.
Some refs point to pre-vedic or vedic periods for their existence, and other do point to 6th century BC which would be the period of Jains. However, Jains and Buddhists were for shunning pleasures (at least that is how we understand them), whereas charvaks were all for enjoying while mainitaining a healthy, logical and reasoning attitude and were against religious castism. Jains and Buddhists were also atheists to begin with of course, but then those streams got mudded by all but deifying their "prophets."
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Storvi
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| | Friday, February 24, 2006 - 11:07 pm: |
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Ashish, too good.
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Ashish,needless to say, all your pieces are a reflection of a first class mind. However, I did find a few places where I had to stumble, most of the times because I did not simply know the context, but at very few times because I found something contrary to what I thought I knew.
Your piece about the Triumph of Capitalism over socialism/marxism was pretty nifty and I just breezed through it - except for its first para : as to how Marx was in favor of Capitalism and preached his ideas (that later were propagated in Russia and the eastern Europe) as a stop-gap arrangement. This to me was rather new. Are there any explicit references to this in either the Menifesto or any other of Marx's works ?
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Bee
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| | Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 6:17 am: |
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even me too like his pieces but sometimes its too hi-fi either because of the sujects itself or his fandoo english Ashish diwaa ghyaa ho..
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Aschig
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| | Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 7:00 am: |
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muktasunit, do point out what you find inconsistent so that I could try to work on it.
In the manifesto link that I have given, go to the first part and search for the phrase "All fixed, fast-frozen" and read the few paragraphs following that. They describe the power of capitalism very vividly. Remember also that it was written more than 150 years ago. A more detailed description can be found in Thomas Friedman's "The world s flat" chapter four.
I do not believe my mind is any better than most others. I would be happy if I can make at least a few people think radically and out of the box (and for themselves). Thanks for the compliment though :-)
bee, I never visit hitguj without a light or an umbrella. :-)
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Champak
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| | Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 3:52 pm: |
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without a light or an umbrella. :-)>>>><<
Umbrella.... not necessary. Nobody will do Marathi Sue on HG
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Ashish,
I didn't mean there were any inconsistencies. To be honest, I have not read any marxist stuff with any seriousness (not even the Manifesto ; although with your link I do plan to read it with some diligence).My quip was based upon the stereotypical image one has about Marx as the nemesis of Capitalist ideas. I guess it takes a certain kind of understanding of the Utopian economists , the Marxists and the founding fathers of Capitalist ideas to understand what you have said about Marx in your article...
As regards "making at least a few people think radically and out of the box" , you can be assured about it -- at least for one .
I guess "inspiring" is the word.
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Bee
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| | Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 5:51 am: |
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Umbrella.... not necessary. Nobody will do Marathi Sue on HG
>>>>> this is new to me that u need umbrella when other sue
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Ashish,
Just read your latest post. As it happens with each one of yours, even this one evoked an array of reactions. Trying to log a few that may make sense.This reposte is by no means, a counter-argument; but merely an expression of related thoughts.
Many times, silence comes out of diffidence. And this diffidence is not about shyness as such; it is about a feeling that one's own opinions are not based upon complete and authentic information. Many times one feels it is a privilege to see so much confusion around you. Not everyone has it. Of course, the above is true about situations where one tends to get lost in the quagmires of opinions and arguments. It is not true about the unequivocal situations where one needs to express his/her voice of reason.
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Gs1
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| | Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 8:59 am: |
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आशिष, तुझे विविध लेख वाचले. माझा अभिप्राय थोडक्यात देण्याचा प्रयत्न करत आहे.
या सर्व लेखात एका विचारी आणि बंडखोर मनाचे प्रामाणिक प्रतिबिंब पडलेले दिसून येते, आणि म्हणूनच त्यातल्या अनेक मुद्द्यांविषयी माझे पूर्ण दुमत असूनही मला हे लेख आवडले.
ज्या गोष्टींबद्दल दुमत आहे त्या सर्व गोष्टींबद्दल लिहिणे शक्य नाही, पण तुझ्याच शेवटाच्या लेखातल्या 'स्पीक अप' आवाहनाला अनुसरून एक दोन गोष्टी लिहितो.
चार्वाक
u have said: Charvaks are atheists and hence religious establishments were against them and did not let their literature survive***. So, it is the other religions that have saved their arguments against the first religion. Thus all their work is saved by third parties
हे मत चुकीच्या माहितीवर आधारलेले आहे.
वस्तुस्थिती अशी आहे चार्वाकाच्या तत्वद्यानाने चांगलीच वैचारिक खळबळ उडाली, त्याच्या मतांचा सखोल अभ्यास झाला, त्या तत्वज्ञानाला भारतीय जीवनदर्शनांपैकी एक म्हणून मान्यता तर मिळालीच, पण त्या काळात आणि नंतरही प्रत्येक दर्शनाच्या अभ्यासात चार्वाकाच्या सिद्धांतांचे खंडन वा मंडन याला महत्वाचे स्थान मिळाले.
एक गोष्ट सांगतो, चार्वाकाने एकदा आपल्या विरोधकांना घरी जेवायला बोलावले आणि वर माडीवर आदरपूर्वक बसवले. थोड्याच वेळात खालून पक्वान्नाचा घमघमाट येऊ लागला. बराच काळ लोटला तरी जेवण काही वर येईना, सर्व अतिथी अस्वस्थ झाले आणि खाली गेले तर ते सर्व जेवण अग्नीला अर्पण केले जात होते, व चार्वाक व त्याचे शिष्यगणही यथेच्छ जेवत होते. हे बघुन जेंव्हा अतिथी क्रोधित झाले तेंव्हा चार्वाक त्यांना म्हणाला , 'यज्ञात दिलेल्या समिधा जर देवांना वा पितरांना वर स्वर्गात मिळतात, तर मी इथे दिलेली आहुती तुम्हाला वर माडीवर का मिळू नये ? ' तेंव्हा विरोधक खजील होऊन निघून गेले. ही गोष्ट किती खरी किती खोटी हे कसे ठरवणार ? पण असे काही करण्याचे स्वातंत्र्य त्या ज्ञानाधिष्ठित समाजात होते हे लक्षात येते.
चार्वाकाची शिष्यपरंपरा पुढे खंडित झाली, मूळ ग्रंथही त्यामुळे टिकले नाहीत. पण चार्वाकाचे तत्वज्ञान जिवंत राहिले ते इतर दार्शनिकांनी त्याचा एक एक मुद्दा गांभीर्यपूर्वक घेउन त्याच्या केलेल्या खंडनामुळे. सर्वदर्शनसंग्रहाचा थोडक्यात अभ्यास केला तरी असे लक्षात येते की आस्तिक दर्शने मानली जाणार्या वेदांत, मीमांन्सा, सांख्य, न्याय, वैशेषिक आणि योग या चार्वाकाच्या वैचारिक विरोधकांनीच चार्वाक जिवंत ठेवला. बौद्ध व जैन या so called thirdy party पंथांनी नाही.
भारतीय तत्वज्ञानाचा हा वारसा, त्यात 100% विरोधकाच्या मतांचीही सन्मानाने घेतलेली नोंद, थिसिस कसा लिहावा, लॉजिक कसे मांडावे, वादाचा निर्णय कसा लागेल या सर्वांचा सखोल आणि तपशीलवार केलेला उहापोह हा आपण जसे जसे खोलात जाऊन बघू तसे केवळ दिपून जायला होते.
दुर्दैवाने ही उदार व समृद्ध परंपरा समजून न घेता हिंदू संस्कृतीबद्दल मनुस्मृती, चार्वाक असे काहीतरी अर्धवट हाताशी धरून अपमानकारक व विपर्यास्त प्रचार करण्यात मार्क्सवादी व मिशनरी आघाडीवर असतात. ( दलित फुटीरतेचे बीजही यातूनच रोवले गेले आहे )
त्यांचे लेखन किंवा विकिपेडिया सारखा कुठलीही विश्वासार्हता वा अचुकतेचे उत्तरदायित्व नसलेला प्रकल्प हा एवढी गंभीर विधाने वा निष्कर्ष मांडण्यासाठी आधारभूत होउ शकत नाही, होउ नये असे मला वाटते.
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Gs1
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| | Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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एका वाक्याचे संदर्भासहित खंडन करायला एवढा वेळ लागला तेंव्हा एका वाक्यावरच थांबतो.
पण भगतसिंग, सोशलिझम व ग्लोबलायझेशन याब्दालची विधाने, किंवा Francious Gautier या ज्येष्ठ फ़्रेंच पत्रकाराची कुणीही बाळू लिहितो अशी संभावना असे बरेच काही मुद्दे हे पुरेशा माहितीअभावी लिहिलेले, वस्तुस्थितीला सोडुन अथवा एकांगी वाटले.
मला एवढेच म्हणायचे आहे की हेगेल, मर्क्स आणि एन्जल्स यांनी सर्व जुन्या कल्पना मोडित काढणारे असे स्वत : चे विश्लेषण मांडले.
अत्यंत मौलिक असे हे विश्लेषण आहे यात शंका नाही. पण तेच सार्वकालिक सत्य म्हणून धरून बसणे, आणि सर्व जगाकडे त्या विश्लेषणाच्या वा त्याच्या अनुयायांच्या चष्म्यातून बघणे हाही एक dogma च आहे. and one should try to seek freddom from this dogma as well. या त्रयीच्या अलिकडे आणि पलिकडेही फार मोठे प्रत्यक्ष व वैचरिक जग आहे. ( आणि त्याचा आवाका त्यांना नव्हता असे म्हणण्यासही वाव आहे. )
उदाहरणार्थ, त्यांचे धर्मविषयक विवेचन वाचले तर हे सहज लक्षात येते की हे ज्यू, इस्लाम आणि ख्रिश्चन या organized religions ना जास्त चपखल बसते. पण त्यांची विधाने मात्र सरसकट जनरलायझेशन करणारी आहेत. या त्रयीतल्या कुणाचाच पौर्वात्य धर्म आणि तत्वज्ञान यांच्याशी फारसा संबंध आला नसावा. लाओत्सेचे ताओ, कंफ़्युशियस, वेदांत, बुद्ध हे सर्व तत्वद्यान, त्यात अभिप्रेत utopian समाजरचना यामध्ये आणि या तिघांच्या धर्माबद्दलच्या गृहितकांमध्ये मोठा फरक दिसून येतो.
जीवनाकडे खरच उघड्या डोळ्यांनी बघायचे असेल तर त्याला कुठल्याच इझमची झापडे न लावल्यास उत्तम असे मला वाटते. तुझे असे असेल असे मला म्हणायचे नाही, पण थोडा एकांगी प्रभाव जाणवला म्हणून लिहिले.
आता शेवटचे
तू छान विचार करतोस आणि लिहितोस, पण हे सर्व मराठीतून लिहिलेस तर मायबोलीवर जास्त जणांपर्यंत पोहोचेल आणि ही 'मायबोली' असल्याने असे करणे हे सक्ती नसली तरी संकेतांना धरून होईल असे वाटते.
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| चोखंदळ ग्राहक |
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| महाराष्ट्र धर्म वाढवावा |
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| व्यक्तिपासून वल्लीपर्यंत |
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| पांढर्यावरचे काळे |
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| गावातल्या गावात |
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| तंत्रलेल्या मंत्रबनात |
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| आरोह अवरोह |
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| शुभंकरोती कल्याणम् |
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| विखुरलेले मोती |
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| हितगुज गणेशोत्सव २००६ |
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